VALUE ADJUSTMENT BOARD MEETING
OCTOBER 8, 2012
Called to order by Chair Taylor
Property Appraiser Vanlandingham presented his case. Handed out packet of evidence. Have Mr. Taylor Moore and Mr. Mike Moore, Robert Mayo and Archie Summers present with him. Have copy of petition filed by Mr. Poppell.
Factors: Present cash value, Highest and best use:
Preponderance of evidence: concept can be visualized
Dealing with unique piece of property. To help familiarize is to outline – subject parcel is assessed as 332 acres of submerged lake bottom acreage. When dam was built determined that impounded waters of lake would not rise above contour 70 line. Mr. Fred P. Gray, predecessor in title did not convey “fee simple” title to lands he owned. He retained ownership.
Black represents shoreline. In a lot of incidences, the contour 70 line may be upward so owner of lot thinking he owns to the waters edge is surprised to find he only owns to contour 70 line. Typically when you have a lake front lot, you have a dock and boathouse. Homeowners along the lakefront built
Between Oklawaha Creek and There are instances since 2004, Mr. Poppell has
Have several owners,not on property they own but on property Mr. Poppell owns Have contour 70 line Mr. Poppell owns and
We all assume our Countys comprehensive plan use plans covers all property in the county. Have assumed some might apply to Mr. Poppell and his property. Outline shows blue. Concensus of department County does not issue building permits for docks. County lacks general direction whether land use code
Land use code
First page that is an arial photograph, you can see the lake bottom, red squares represent parcels Mr. Poppell has sold to land owners, latest sale being March of this year. Next sheet of paper is spread sheet giving particulars of sale. Had purchase price, date, price per front foot and assessed value of property. Going down column from top to bottom, range anywhere in 2005 up to a period of time in 2007 when a particular lot sold for $123,000. Shown sales from 2004, one in 05, sale from Mr. Poppell to entity known as Coach Estates. Conveyance coverd approximately 200 acres. Dock stamps on deed showed $200,000. Mr. Poppell owner financed that sale. 2007-2008 happended to be busiest
Mr. Poppell’s situation unique in typlically however in Gadsden County on Lake Talquin where flooding easement did not cover that was granted at Hammock Creek. This is a depliction of lots in submerged land sold to owners. All those lots sold, all documents, deeds recorded same day, for all practical purposes sold for $15,000 each except for one marked confidential. Following page is just GIS drawing doe not show
Turn page to first picture, shows boathouses. If I own the upland portion of lot, I would certainly want nice shed and dock, have included several pictures for you to look at. The first 6 pictures represent improvements on lots who had the boat houses and docks built on Mr. Poppell’s land and he conveyed property to them.
They feel pretty good
The next 4 pictures, boathouses and docks, those owners do not own, are docks and boathouses supposedly owned by Mr. Poppel and have not acquired to them. Could come along and fence off preventing them from getting to property. But he’s a nice guy and doesn’t do that. The parcel we’re talking about is in blue. Out in open lake, full of stumps and fishing holes, currently $1.00 per acre. Probably only use has is conservation or recreation. Why valued at $1.00 With help of mapping and GIS, have determined has 350 has enough to have 65
We assess waterfront by dry foot. This particular case, standing in water looling at contour 70 line. Making sure include dock and boathouse. 100’ wise by 100’ Currently assessing at $15,000.00 per lot and show 65 of them. Have taken 332 have 65 97,500. Add two together and $15,000 based on several things. Sales at Hammock Creek. No pressure on buyers, willing seller under no
Mr. Poppell’s lot sells for quite a bit more. If I own a waterfront lot and have a dock and boathouse, will do all I can to make sure I own all that I have built. Will go see Mr. Poppell. Will let you all decide
Is that buyer willing to pay more than $15,000. He’s got a $6,000 boathouse. He and Mr. Poppell agrees on transaction. It is submerged, can’t grow trees.
The remaining pages in your packet, come after value conclusion. Mr. Poppell shows 332 submerged, showing 65 lots, some may be submerged,
Following Mr. Poppell’s record card, refered to as Coach Estates. Measured lake front, came up with 100
Remaining poeprty cards shows Assess them even though exempt. Value
If you own the lake bottom, pretty well free to do what want with dock and deck. If state owns, you have red tape to go through and permitting to go through to have built according to state. For every 1 foot of water front have state allows 10 foot. If have pontoon, bass, fishing boat, limited. Mr. Mayo, at my instruction, contacted Jacks Docks, plus admission. Govern what you build and how big. As stated, most is submerged cant do anything except enjoy water’s surface. Hammock Creek represents cleanest sales. Represents fair market value. Basis of assessment of 65 lots have left.
Any questions from the Board.
Mr. Munroe asked if Mr. Poppell had any questions.
Mr. Poppell asked what qualifications Mr. Vanlandingham had
Mr. Vanlandingham-I’m not a registered surveyor. Don’t know out of 65 lots Mr. Poppell has left, what contains dry land. In front of those lots may be in 70 contour line. Those lots would not come into play. Valued at different method and upland lots do not apply to the data used to arrive at our value. Upland lots have a completely different value and were not considered a part of this report.
Chair Taylor asked if concluded his statement.
Mr. John Albert Poppell, Dad other owner. Has POW of Dad. Had to provide PA with copies and no opportunity to look at what he had other than property ID card. Tried to take notes. Mr. V made very statements about what could and couldn’t do, did learn something about assessment of water. Major portion based on shoreline 65 available lots Not here today
Please feel welcome to take package apart.
1974 shows shoreline, see where I have LT and have run of tributaries as well as Lake In center, you will see cross-hatched area, boundaries are natural boundaries, basically runs to Ockloknee river, never had reason to complain, property comes to river’s edge. Map has first page more to scale. Little history on LT. Built in early 20’s, property is unique. Reason flood easement only, current owners did not sell for hydro
People losing property for non-payment. If property large enough would own water-front property. This area adjacent to
Mr. Fred Gray did not give easement. His predecessor made them take him to court. Person suing individual can only
That’s why privately owned land. Taxes been paid never delinquit. Under warranty deed, State of Florida, if you so desire, do not own this piece. Do have easement when turned over for recreation purposes. They overburdened their easement and should not have in manner they did. I deviate a little from my plan, take real encouragement County has no restrictions. State has real problems with that. Officially state here now, would like PA to show, property id # to it, identified as lake front, water’s edge.
I am professional surveyor, when bought this property I knew there were docks county had not issued permits. Chain of title not broken. Mr V presentation today, made statements with
Not qualified to make tht statement. I am not a developer, never solicited a sale, everyone has called me. Every sale that has been made, was reached upon with owner. Two marinas required, found did not own They made offer , I accepted it. Another issue here, the current property appraiser as well as predecessor, assessed, boathouses considered tangible not real property. Before bought, inquired previous how valued
The nice boathouse, is finished house, prior to them arriving, gave partial ID # conflicted with my property. County accepting double taxation on it. Didn’t know what to do. Problem went away, Owner died, Estate sought me out, looked me up, quiet title. A process in P&Z allows 2 adjacent owners to settle boundary line. I as a professional survey, performed that at no expense to owners, I took it upon myself, going into package now.
Exhibit 1-A, I have acquired from TC, the history paid on this property and paid in process. Can see on first page 1-A, taxable value, assessment of $132,…, if you turn to next page, I ask you to go to back of exhibit, purchase date of property from Ms. Gray. 1995, total tax $9.9 go to next page, went up even to point of 2002, 2005 was $88. Magic year of 2006, $6,000 tax bill. I report at this hearing, that assessment based on one sale for 200 acre piece. Had attorney lived on lake, sought me out, was lake front owner, solicited my time. Made me a ridiculous offer provided I financed for him. I sought previous PA, his advice, take your money, based on series of sales. As you follow these numbers on up, still in $5000 year assessment. I reached an agreement to more than less a quarter of that value. Trim notice received this year reduced it more, $1600 value. Knowing what I know of other submerged values throught out state, too much. For clarification, do to Exhibit 2, this is something I ran across on web page, seemed to explain more clearly how arrived. First method, however selling price must be analyzed buyer mae be in hurry, may sell for less because. PA must always considered over-under price Comes from recognized source.
Exhibit 3, statutory outlined, I highlighted best uses Don’t know what highest and best usage
Until today, found out I own 65 lots. When I approached this property and how to deal, when LT was built and filled up to full state, a lot of surveyors, title people, did not know where boundary was or didn’t take time to find out. Came in…water’s edge. Created overlap if you would. Most cases, low area , Any alke system have high winds, slope of shoreline, original 70’contour,bluff where drops off real fast, direct drop, impossible to relocate
Did survey, came up with legal description, area of disclosure could not duplicate same line. Any questions as to 70’contour?
Just for clarification, go to Exhibit 5, see poor copy of , lakes rivers and streams did not have good
If see on second page, will not find lake on there but I have no issue with that. Go over to definition interpretation, I have under the development code, go to definition of environmental itemized all entire property I’m being assessed here today falls under lake. This is when I was contemplating what kind of use I can generate income. Very Valuable income, old growth timber, floated down river to mills and sank, more valuable than timber today. Underlined in black, recovery of deadhead of prohibited from taking. Another door slammed in my face what I can do with it.
If Mr. V. wants to take Exhibit 7, Lake Yvette Homeowners Assn, the assessment $13,431. Ironically 65 being used here today, counted 65, comes to
Exhibit 8, one of parcels adjacent to my in the lake, owned by Florida, leased by state, division of Forestry, there is no assessment, on second page will see assessment. Reason in packet to show if they have next to me, I should too.
Went outside, Lake Bradford, privately owned lake,can see from assessment, first is submerged land, second is , probably should not have put this in but is 1200 acres right across on cover sheet there, on this property they have roughly 100 acres resoirvor, second page identifies 100 acre .
Exhibit 12-A, if you go to , you want to detach map, this is coastal property in Charlotte County, barrier island, first I have under 12-A, on right you see Peking Cove, second page, I’d like for you to examine, original colored, under property, tax parcel number, did 2 assessments, off shore parcel of submerged land, known as P-4, if go to exhibit 12, you’ll see they break it down. Second page of 12-A, highlighted, lot 6 corresponds to map, land assessed at go up not highlighted certified value increased to $1,500,000. P6A submerged land parcel assessed at $12.00. If go to Exhibit 12-B, this on map known as P4, 4—acres state sold years ago. If go to very last page, will see P4 is.
That is just some idea other things that happened around the state.
ID card, county assessment card, small print, blew up so can read, didn’t notice but says available lots offered for future sale. I have not offered. To say those lots exists, probably acquire rights. Prescriptive easements, no where in public records say recorded plats overlaps of 70’ contour. Not something that is known, only dealt with people that have approached me. Clearing of future owners Will always be up in the air.
Probable single most reason here today other than assessment, is fact, in my view, this assessment is like having cake and eat too. Thousands and thousands of dollars, step across line, charging me thousands of dollars. Those people that have not cleard title, I’m their mechanism to do that.
Very close to getting
There is other issues dealing with that. Another battle with IRS One part of government can’t win and other part of government can’t win. Appeal to board Due to my ignorance, now know how to read.
Mr. Milton asked question.
Mr. Poppell responded. Original 70’ may be here. We were talking maps to scale and being well-versed in real property law, most people there now are not original owners. Rest assured local owners know now.
Mr. Milton asked questions. Do they take some of that into consideration.
Mr. Poppell responded. Question really directed to Mr. V. I really didn’t know the results. Thought it could be short of a lawsuit.
Mr. Milton asked about the sales. Did all sales similar
Mr. Poppell responded everyone wanted to own so government couldn’t tell what to do.
Comm. Morgan asked questions. Charlotte County, where is
Poppel responded.
Morgan-questions. Info here referenced Charlotte County appraiser and how defined appraise value. How settle on this?
Poppel responded.
Morgan-more questions. I wanted to build dock or one already there, would I still invest $10,000 even though not sure if I own that property. Want to know I own to build. Take time to get permission. Do you thing I would be
Poppell responded. Almost like personality. Very aggressive, 50 years, not take away from me. Not to litigate.
Morgan responded. Lake house at Lake Seminole.
Poppel
Morgan-if we do any alteration, have to get permission, have to get permission from core to move dead tree. Have to get permits. When we bought that property, 2004 or 05, communicated with Core found out How would I understand
Poppel asked
Morgan
Poppell
Morgan, can be issue
Poppell responded
Morgan-flood zone changed. Whole lot of things may not be cut and dried. One specific question, 1995, see it didn’t ioncrease in 1996 but did in 1997. Is that the same reason for?
Poppell responded.
Morgan
Poppell
Morgan was there a large sale that year and it
Poppell responded. He was being bombarded by local he can speak more clearly than me. I can’t speak as to why 9 to 88 Had to be based on a sale.
Morgan-amount of taxes you pay this year on 65 ascres is how much
Poppell responded
Morgan
Poppell
Morgan-if I were told that I was going to own waterfront, taxes a year, how
Poppell-my opinion, I don’t consider myself
Morgan
Poppell-have not put out general notice nor intend to do. I have viewed other countys’ operation, I where this PA is coming from. The prices agreed upon, considering boundary line settlement, I have not initiated any of if
Morgan
Poppell
Chair
Peeler
Chair
Pooppell
Chair – just finding out things in this hearing could have submitted 15 days. You
Poppell
Chair
Poppell
Chair Fog is you stated something really generated in my mind. Let me ask, you indicated you didn’t know about 64 lots, you also indicated, lot train, what is actual argument.
Poppell- paying per linear foot of lake at a very, very high rate, being assessed same thing.
Chair
Poppell-somewhat blindsided thought he genuinely wanted my help,
Chair under double taxation issue. Here’s what I want to get at. You disagree amount but brought into play this afternoon, 65 lots does it have impact what your being assessed.
Poppell should be worth lot of money but no value to me has no income.
Chair What I’m getting at, nothing you can do to generate but can’t state Whether
Poppell if opinion of this board, I probably could take as
Chair not trying to prompt you You have presented quite a bit of information. Trying to muddle through what has been presented.
Poppell
Chair
Poppell
Chair
Poppell keep in mind, something building up since
Chair why we have these proceedings
Poppell
Chair
Morgan one question You had mentioned double taxation
Chair
Morgan
Poppell have house, really nice house, he’s assessed for that lot, waterfront property, assessed tangible, here I come show they really don’t own where assess value of lot On other hand,value of what may or may not
Morgan
Poppell am being taxed as waterfront. Connected at hip. Property, unless I tool
Morgan
Mr. Vanlandingham-
Chair let me ask question Understand Mr. Poppell, and fact been here couple of hours, even at this time, there is time to work this out. Some would call it case law, is there time you would
Mr. V
Chair
Mr. V
Chair is there still come areas for this
Mr. V
Chair
Mr. V
Chair
Mr. V
Chair
Peeler-specifically, what is to take us from $88 to $ assuming something to do with sales between 2004-2012.
Mr. V
Peeler – one
Mr. V
Peeler
Mr. V-would have been factor inconsideration
Peeler specific ? Do you use camis system
Mr. V
Peeler what does it take into consideration
Mr. V
Peeler hybrid of sale
Mr. V system provides
Peeler do you have category in other words you would take these 26
Mr. V same reason we took Hammock Creek sale.
Peeler
Mr. V- perhaps I can clear up in my rebuttal and fine tuning. As to Mr. Poppell’s 65 lots, that number was reached by using the mapping program in the PA office. As stated earlier not a surveyor. Can use computer, came up with approximately 100 x 100 came up with… We will be glad to have Mr. Poppell to furnish us the amount of frontage he has Furnish the amount of acreage he has. This is determined by staff using software. To the best of our knowledge and belief, we canme up with Same as, You provide us
Double taxation, I’m having a hard time with this one. Here’s upland lot. Let’s say contour is and water’s edge is one and same
Chair questions
Mr. V
Morgan
Chair
Mr. V
Chair
Mv. V-Mr. Poppell you stated when Mr. Gray
Poppell
Mr. V. has been
Poppell
Mr. V
Poppell
Mr. V
Poppell
Mr. V
Poppell
Mr. V
Poppell
Mr. V
Poppell
Mr. V
Poppell any inr
Mr. V There is one parcel # for upland lot. Another parcel for poreprty Mr. Poppell owns. Don’t know ehere contour 70 line is. Will admit. But there is no double taxation. Taxing upland
Chair
Poppell upland and water where double taxation comes from.
Mr. V- I’m an upland owner. I contact Mr. Poppell. I acquire this much submerged land. Whatever this parcel number is, this is now made a part of the same number. Assessed at different rate.
Milton questions.
Mr. V responded. No wherever upper start and lower. Some of those same people have been in my office, they do not have lake front property. Having them establish You made comment about unknown ownership. That is not unknown
Poppell
Mr. V
Poppell
Mr. V in a perfect world. Farm pond, waste pond $30/acre. There is difference in that assessment and Mr. Poppell’s assessment. Whether or not any of Mr. Poppell’s land is listed for sale does not matter. You do not have to have a listing to sale property. Whatever sold or has been sold out of dealing with today, is domething he has agreed to. Went to Mr. Poppell, I would like to to convey that to me don’t
Poppell
Mr. V - Whatever price is marketvalue of property or what Mr. Poppell and agreeing buyer , I will buy and I will sell. He sets the market at LT for submerged lands because of other than State and not in business in selling submerged land. He created the market himself by accepting x number I think that is the main point. Don’t thing coastal barrier island property
Chair
Poppell only have one noted point in this scenario. The property that people have not called me on, this scenario, this property is more valuable right here than out in the lake. It may be the approach they say I have 65 lots. I only have
Chair We need to have a discussion around this Board and get some direction.
You have heard both sides. Is there
Peeler-having a little difficulty assessing what value If I’m that property owner there, if I’m being assessed and front footage, I’m being taxed, only difficulty I’m having which is right. He is making the market, to me has no value
Chair coming back because
Muriel – state finding of fact
Chair
Morgan definition of preponderance of evidence decision after hearing this, tie goes to appraiser. My findings be if no value why not give it away and not sell. Assuming if comeone had $1 Million, Mr. Poppell agreed to sell, does not affect the market value of surrounding property. But based on what I have heard, I would tend to say not enough evidence to change what PA appraised
Milton – both very well prepared. Found there is property there and there is value to contour line. While not for sale, if someone $1500 based upon prior not enough evidence to overturn evidence.
Peeler agree there is evidence of sale, uphold fact evidence as weighed should support PA
Chair Living in democracy, here’s where I am, my nature, still looks for avenue to negotiate. Still look for that, When you Sir, were standing there, and you Sir I don’t want an uproar around my lake, that’s my district. Still going to ask the two of you meet.
Ruling for day is uphold that PA assessment was but caveat to that be
Muriel are you remanding to them
Bradley
Chair
Muriel
Chair make sure language iw clear
Mr. V Our office will be more than happy to work with Mr. Poppell on next year’s value, perhaps the acreage is wrong, the front footage is wrong. He may agree the only method we Will be happy to let him come in and draw
Chair
Muriel state findings and
Bradley
Muriel
Chair
Morgan
Chair
Muriel
Chair
Morgan
Muriel is value-comparable sales
Chair illustration showed 2 tax deeds was no double taxation based on assessment based on that rate. Now, let’s do this,
Muriel-comparable sales, 2 tax deeds, no double taxation that exist.
Chair
Muriel is assessment difference in open water
Clay – submerged lands in major portion of lake
Muriel
Clay starts 100’ out begins to be submerged land
Muriel
Clay
Muriel
Clay
Chair
Clay
Chair
Clay
Chair
Bradley
Clay
Chair
Poppell It is beyond my imagination,,This office has created 65 lots
chair
Clay
Poppell
Chair
Poppell
Chair Correct me Mr. Attorney, you felt that this proceeding was fair
Poppell within the limits with the way I presented things and the way he presented things, value was established by There have been quite a few sales, whether I shoreline until they see fit. After the finding today, it may change the way I look at things, don’t want to infringe on landowners rights, no matter where
Chair around county what we have done is place moratorium deeding those parcels to them at no costs
Poppell
Chair
Poppell
Chair He’s invited you to come in
Ladies and gentlemen, I need a motion on the floor based upon the preponderance of evidence, there is two separate tax parcels and no double taxation.
Morgan/Milton 4/0